THE HEROES ATTEMPT TO RESCUE THEMSELVES AND OTHERS WITHOUT THE USE OF THEIR POWERS
Matt (Greg Grunberg) goes to extreme measures to extinguish Sylar (Zachary Quinto), who continues to torment him. Elsewhere, HRG. (Jack Coleman) calls in a favor from Tracy (Ali Larter) to save a troubled young boy whose misfortunes resemble her own. While Claire (Hayden Panettiere) and Gretchen (guest star Madeline Zima) are being hazed by their new sorority sisters, they realize pledging might not be their biggest problem. Robert Knepper also stars. Lisa Lackey, Tessa Thompson and Rick Worthy guest stars.
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@ F.D.
“Why would his father researches lead him to the Carnival?”
Good point, I wasn’t thinking when I typed that! Obviously time would be a factor, i.e. was there even a Carnival around at that time (but assuming that Sam and Joseph – The Sullivan Brothers – did actually START the Carnival, then probably not)?
I’m thinking, tho, more along the lines of what Sam was talking to Tracy about… the ‘energy’ that he feels when someone joins his family. Check this out (it’s not word for word, but the gist of it)…
“We’re all connected…”
“You weren’t just tapping into your ability, Tracy…”
“I feel some kind of energy, every time someone joins my family…”
It seems that there is some kind of ‘force’ that connects all the Specials (it’s been mentioned before that ‘we are all connected’ – Nathan said it when he ‘resurrected’, as well as others) which means they are all part of something much, much greater… and Sam seems to be aware of this.
While I’m talking on this subject… could the ‘greater force’ be something to do with Uluru? Remember some of Isaac Mendez’ earlier paintings/ comics were something to do with Uluru, and it was supposed to be an integral and important part of the show’s mythology since the beginning (like the Symbol). Seeing as Uluru is another name for AYERS ROCK, and Sam’s power is Terrakinesis, I wouldn’t be AT ALL surprised if there was a connection there somewhere. Maybe Chandra’s research has something to do with that… which could explain why Sam might have killed Mo (to protect the secret/ his people?) before finding out that Mo was now one of them, and not a mere human like his father was… which is why he wants to fix that mistake…? Just a top-of-the-head theory.
Finally, this ’something greater’ force… I’m sure that this is how the compass works, and why it only works for Specials (connecting energy to energy i.e. from one individual’s energy to the Carnival’s collective energy).
Any thoughts (especially about Uluru)?
To be honest this is the first time someone actually draws my attention to Uluru. Thanks for pointing it out!
Are you saying Uluru could be some kind of divinity, in which Samuel taps his very ability? So he’d be some kind of prophet for specials ?
Could the immense earthquake that split the planet in half in the future had been caused by that “thing”?
This is certainly interesting, albeit a bit complicated concept to make us swallow so deep into the seasons. There’s already the eclipses, the genes and the adrenaline and they haven’t even came close to make any sense out of all of those yet!
I must admit however that I too am intrigued by Samuel’s apparent knowledge of a superior “force”.
i was soooo impressed by this ep, i thought there was quite a few unexpected twists, to be honest i never thought it would end like that. oh did anyone else think that when hiro goes to look for charlie outside that sylar had killed her ? has anyone found major timeline problems ?
btw please could someone please tell me around what time the mohinder scene was, completely missed it so i don’t know what happened on my stream.
oh i’ve put a post in the thread before well after this i suppose about who’s getting killed off.
-k-
oh also wendi mentioned a few weeks agao that santigo (or however you spell it) aka issac was on set but i didnt see anything new on this ep, that scene was copied from the first season wasnt it ?
-k-
oh wait was the mohinder bit the 8 weeks ago thing, see now this is why you should always sit at a computer where light does not fall on the screen, gah! i thought it was samuels brother lol.
-k-
thx k
ok guys,
i was right i guess, saving charlie wasnt as simple as he made it lk but somethigns that i luved
-YAYATTA WE HAVE FULL POWERED HIRO BACK, FINALLY, ABOUT TIME TOO!
– Next trailer shows that something is up with peters power…is he coming back full too?
– i liked the hrg plotline, i bet we will still more of lauren now AND that lauren wasnt really haitened.
– wouldnt our hiro have messed up the timeline slightly through his journey? sylar will still go and be beaten but once he gets out surely he knows now that he has to be well different?
– mohinder. finally, but what about him having important information for hrg? or is that why samuel killed him.
cant hiro teleport back in time and stop the ‘butterfly man from stealing charlie away, a timetraveler vs another time traveller i guess, too risky.
ok so time to talk, what does samuel want hiro for? what butterflys? why would he give a **** about killing mohinder, he killed danko…how many in that house? the policemen….all people that deserved it other than mohinder?
he was sorry about mohinders death….it was him that killed mohinder wsnt it?
okay. this explains perfectly well why we havent seen him. i did like that ep, it had a real season 1 feel to it.
im gunna go with best ep so far in redemption, though claire once again pushed her way into a pointless plot line.
@ k. wtf so the big death last season, AND this season was nathan?
sorry but i cant see them killing him off….wait a sec they already have…okay i cant believee they killed him off, when we saw nathan die though i knew that nylar wouldnt last,
there was debate over nylar vs sylar….
i luved ‘where’s your sword. that doesnt matter!’
that ep was REALLY well done in my opinion, you could rewatch the season 1 ep n then this, so well done.
fully powered hiro!….except that HE is sstill dying,
who can see hiro saving samuels life coming up?
both timetravellers had a tumour, there is something in that…
your thoughts?
Excellent episode I must say and they are making a huge comeback with this season so far! It will be interesting to see what happened because remember a spoiler said Mohinder had something to tell Noah and warn him about…..coincidentally, maybe the reason Samuel was so adamant on hoping Noah forgot about them and is no longer in the business….it will be wierd to see what happens and why Samuel did it….is the major scene they’ve mentioned Samuel/Mohinder going at it resulting in Mo’s death?? Or someone else down the road like Sylar using Matt’s body and someone benig forced to kill him?? Hmmmm….would Sylar’s consciousness escape if Matt died?? @ few things to think about and plus that scene people have mentioned with Matt tied down looking through bandages, probably gets confined to the nut house….must say, great ep and can’t wait until next week.
@ sk74
in a way, it was bringing back the FutureHiro of S1 (”where’s the sword?” NICE!
) which of course, in the past, is what our PresentHiro is!
- completely agree lol
One thing I can see though… Didn’t Sylar originally use Charlie’s ability to memorise Chandra Suresh’s list of Specials? That was how he found Zane Taylor (?) the artist that could ‘melt’ things, after Mohinder destroyed the list and evidence of their whereabouts, but I’m not sure if he memorised the names and locations of anyone else. So how does THAT work now?
- your right again, but maybe sylar simply glanced down and liked zanes power? wait a minr emember how annoyed he was when the list was destroyed…i dont think he did memorise it.
@ F.D
I’m still confused about why HRG still wonders how Sylar looks like. Either he doesn’t know that Sylar is Gabriel Gray (who he camped with Elle to study his case) or the Company Haïtianed him for some reason.
yes but maybe he thought that sylar and gaybriel gray were different people…somehow…and of course sylar ws covering up there so hrg couldnt recognise him.
gd point guys, how does that compass work? i think it may be linked to one individual special, like lydia makes inc, they make….compasses? lol no but is this greater force religious?
is this what healed nathan after f.p shot him? i still think it ws peter himself but anyway…
hmmm wendi has had sandhil into make up today so either he’s in flashbacks or maybe hiro’s gone back, actually she’s reported him in for make up quite a few times yay.
i love the fact that some poster on another (dont kill me) forum has said “there not bullets, there earth pellets” lol.
grrr megaload isnt letting me at the mo so will someone please clear this up for me:
it was arnold in the bed wasnt it and also was hiro saying samuels a murder about arnold or mohinder ?
i’m also with you all on the sword banter, fantastic.
-k-
‘other forum’…kerry, kerry
jks ya samuel can be powerful when the budget wants him to be.
They will most likely show us flashbacks of Suresh. Since he theorically died 2 months ago, anything we’ll see of him will be flashbacks unless Hiro saves him and we get to see him in present time.
@ alexx
“yes but maybe he thought that sylar and gaybriel gray were different people…somehow…and of course sylar ws covering up there so hrg couldnt recognise him.”
Oh, you mean like how people in Metropolis think Superman and Clark Kent are two different people?
Well, if a pair o’ specs can work for Supes, I guess a black cap is good enuf to disguise Sy… 
No, seriously, I agree with F.D… thanks to that ep last season, we now know that HRG and Elle were staking out Gabriel’s apartment before he started killing. There was a camera in there for crying out loud!!! HRG should have known EXACTLY what Gabriel/ Sylar looked like at the diner, coz that took place later. A cap and trenchcoat should NOT have been enough of a disguise to fool someone that has got video footage of him, especially when he’s in the same SMALL diner! I mean, c’mon… Noah recognised our Hiro, even though I don’t think they had met [properly] before the diner back in S1… but he doesn’t recognise the killer he helped to create – the sole subject of the only TV program he was watching when in that surveillance van – sitting next to the only door to the place? Tut tut…
I know that Noah has some sight problems, but maybe he needs some new HRGs… shoulda gone to Specsavers!
@sk/F.D., come on, HRG is a human being and after turning down some tail like his partners’, I think he was still spaced out on whether or not he was going to start doing the horizontal pokey!
Gotta give him a pass on that one…..I won’t lie though, I wondered the same and said, whatever…..I’m done asking why they didn’t show us this and that….have too many of those….
More than anything, interested to see what affect does Mo’s death have to do with Samuel?? Guaranteed he found out afterward the importance of his life and probably killed him (you know how stubborn Mohinder can be about saying I’ll stop you) after he tried to gesture him in like everyone else and Mo after maybe figuring out what he wants, told him to go fly a kite….and may have found out afterward Mohinder may know something key to saving them all or the grand plan….is it me, but we haven’t seen Angela in a minute since Nathan died and he was missing?? WTF??? Is no one looking for him?? He’s a effin SENATOR!!!
@ gotay
So I’ll let him off that one… good to see he isn’t a jobsworth, I suppose…
LMFAO! ok, I guess if I was in HRG’s shoes at that time, my focus wouldn’t be on Sylar either!
The mystery of Mo… can’t wait to see what that’s all about. It literally has JUST popped into my head, but I wonder if Sam knows about Mo’s blood containing antibodies to the Shanti Virus (if it still does)? Just thinking… Sam might hate humans, but even before he gained a synthetic ability Mo was the one human that would have been beneficial to keep around… I’m thinking that the Anti-Shanti (I kinda like that one) in Mo’s blood could be one reason why Sam has made a terrible mistake by killing him, but that idea also seems too old, repetitive and redundant to be relevant for this season. Or is it? What do any of you think?
And true about Nate going awol… Maybe Ange has turned chicken and gone into hiding? Nah, doubt it, but she must know that something’s up… Well, that’s what happens when you keep everyone in the dark. Now she can’t turn to anyone that would want to help (like Peter) without spilling the beans… and losing another son.
@ gotchay, i said that agges ago too, he is a senator, i know that we havent been near someone with headlines recently but how long can that last? noone had heard from him in 5 weeks??? something like that?
next ep…hmmm sylar vs matt….again? sylar has already taken over…it does seem like his journey to his other self is lagging on.
as more samuel. he loves specials. fine. he wants to make his family bigger, ok. he doesnt mind blackmailing them into following him at all…his motives are evil though….he really is a bad villain no offence to samuel lovers, but seriously he killed mohinder n ws then close to tears…it would be like sylar breaking down everytime someone cut themselves.
i rle hope tht we see more of sylars dad or wt ws th point of introducing him, same goes for alice n cyote sands…without further explaination… and yes i know th C SANDS ws about why th company ws started…but couldnt she have just told them that ‘you must take up 3 episodes digging’
@sk, samuel might hate humans…shanti virus…MAGNETO ALERT
@ alexx
Remember, 5 wks for us (the viewers) prob doesn’t equate to 5 wks in the Heroes universe. For all we know, Nathan has only been missing for a few hours! OK, just exaggerating to make my point… but the last 5 (or so) wks for us has maybe just been a few days to them. Still… whether it’s hours, days or weeks, I bet that Angela is sleeping with one eye open these days!
“i rle hope tht we see more of sylars dad or wt ws th point of introducing him…”
Well… remember how Sylar was trying to find his real father? IMO, if they hadn’t introduced Samson and put an end to Sylar’s quest, the question that SOMEONE out there would have asked by now would be “When is Sylar going to find his real Dad? He’s been looking for a long time now… it’s dragging on a bit… etc etc.” Think about it: you say yourself that Sylar’s quest to find his BODY is dragging on, and we’re only, what… 8 episodes in? Imagine if he was STILL trying to find his bio-dad then, after a whole season of teasin’! Remember, bro, not ALL characters are gonna be around all the time, or reintroduced, etc. Samson served his purpose for the moment: Sylar finally found what he was seeking, we found out that it’s a case of like father like son (which made Sylar rethink his whole strategy/ gameplan), and it has opened up the POSSIBILITY for future storylines.
Let me put it this way: How psyched were you when the subject of CB was mentioned the other week? Let me answer… VERY!!!
Now, if they were mentioning/ using CB EVERY SINGLE DAMN EPISODE, the impact would become non-existent, no? Not to mention that it would get BLOODY BORING (no pun intended… at first)!
IMO The reason that this season is working so well so far, is because they aren’t cramming in all available Heroes into each ep like so many sardines into a tin! One week we follow this bunch, the next week we see what the other lot are doing… it builds suspense and ANTICIPATION for the next installment. And also, what with the various Carnies and different subplots (which will converge towards the conclusion), is there REALLY any room for Samson in this season? I can see him making an appearance towards the middle/ end of the season (i.e. being rushed in to the hospital where Peter is working) which will set the stage for his eventual return maybe next season, but that’s it. Anything more than a cameo appearance this season wouldn’t sit right with me.
OK, the real reason I logged on at this hour…
Just watched Once Upon A Time again. Such a good ep that I don’t really wanna fault it at all… BUT… (I’ll try to keep it short!)
1) I had this one from WAAYYY back, from S1 when Hiro met Charlie. Basically, coz he went back 6 months to save her (and was in the present day photo) I reckon Charlie the Memory Girl should have known Hiro from the moment he stepped into the diner THE VERY FIRST TIME. Because – from her POV – they had met 6 months previously, she def should have remembered him, while he wouldn’t have had a clue who she was. With me so far?
Well, in this ep, they screwed it up EVEN MORE IMO… Charlie serves OriginalHiro and Ando but doesn’t seem to recognise OriginalHiro (I’m talkin bout the “What’s that on your jacket?” moment)… Then she does her waitressing bit around the diner… goes to the back to open that tin… (this is where CowboyHiro saves her from being killed by Sylar, blahblahblah…)
Now, when CowboyHiro returns and unfreezes time, she exclaims “Hiro!” (so she recognises him, no problemo… doesn’t ask what happened to his clothes, like Ando did – so she hasn’t mistaken him for OriginalHiro, who she simply does not seem to know OR recognise!) While hugging, she even says “Woah, you act like you haven’t seen me in years!” or something like that… SO SHE DOES REMEMBER HIM! How could she not react AT ALL to OriginalHiro like she’d never met him before, but react so strongly (and ‘intimately’) to CowboyHiro in the space of a minutes/ hours? I thought she had an eidetic memory! Hey, if OriginalHiro (moron LOL!) can recognise himself instantly – as did Ando – then why can’t she?
And before anyone tries to say “the aneurysm was messing with her mind”… NO! When the aneurysm was playing up, she remembered MORE, even going into ‘auto-pilot’ with facts about Otsu. C’mon, when Hiro returned with ‘Doctor’ Sylar, even the OTHER, older waitress recognised him FROM 6 MONTHS AGO and exclaimed “Hiro!” – yet she, too, failed to recognise OriginalHiro when he and Ando walked in the diner. Come to think of it, she didn’t recognise our Hiro either, when he was outside still in his hospital gown – but to be fair, she wasn’t exactly looking at his face at that particular moment lol!
2) I could be wrong on this one but here goes: At that point in S1, did Ando know that FutureHiro carrried a sword? (I seem to vaguely remember that he did hear it mentioned, when OriginalHiro spoke to Peter on the phone and got the “STC, STW” message, but I can’t be too sure)
3) Now… if CowboyHiro KNOWS in his mind that Charlie originally died (I’m sure he saw her body in the room in S1) then that is a MEMORY… it is the reason that he went back there. BUT… if he changed HIS OWN history by TELLING his younger self that she was dead (rather than his younger self SEEING it) then wouldn’t that AT LEAST change his current self, or the memories? And since OriginalHiro came back eventually – dejected – and Charlie was still dead, isn’t that why he is on this particular mission?
So if OriginalHiro returned and learned that Charlie was alive (Ando could have told him, since she was in the diner when CowboyHiro told him to get back in there and wait)… WHY would Hiro need to come back to save her?
So we have a Hiro who has altered the memories of his past self – but shown no repercussions as a result, so in effect CowboyHiro remembers a past that never happened. Because of this non-existent history that only he remembers, he has gone back in time to save a woman who never got killed or died – even though he remembers that she did. He has negated the reason for himself going back in time AND altered the experiences (and therefore the memory) of his past self, but retained the original memories AND not faded away… or even had so much as a headache.
PARADOX? OR PLOTHOLE???
Yep the “stc-stw” phone message, peter said to ando that f.hiro had a sword to which p.hiro then made the sword movement.
It just came to me as i was trying to get to sleep last night (yes how sad of me i know lol) that we found abit of info a few weeks ago that said that 50% of mohinders scenes are with hiro.
I’m right there with you SK74, its always made me wonder that if time changes course does that mean that time-travellers are immune in term of their memories ? but then i get started on the other things like when hiro and claire went back 16yrs and how come noah didnt remember that it was claire/”bonnie”, i mean surely he would have noticed they look completly the same.
Also wasnt hiros power iffy at that time 3yrs ago remember he was only suppposed to go back a day & yet he was perfect at going back this time and how does he know when to come back cos he “timed out” (as i like to put it lol).
hmm who knows where the charlie plot is heading but this could certinatly end up with badass hiro, well most likely the attitude not the image…grrrr i keep having heated debates on the badass hiro thing on g-heroes, everyone keeps going on about if the directors bring back badass hiro then it’ll be the complete FYG image, and yes that is an option but we also had the hiro from s3ep1 with the short leather jacket and thick glass (hmm still very nice), FYG hiro was on the run its not like he can just walk into a hairdressers lol.
-k-
ok i meant to say Gok Wan style thick glasses also both future hiros (s1 and s3) had the sword, oh please let the sword make a comeback.
-k-
@ Kerry
)
Thanks for the confirmation! At first I didn’t think that Ando knew about the sword, but then I vaguely remembered Peter telling Hiro over the phone, and Hiro turning smugly to Ando saying “I had a sword!” Just too tired to check the ep at that hour (but somehow, not too tired to write a long-ass post about it!
“I’m right there with you SK74, its always made me wonder that if time changes course does that mean that time-travellers are immune in term of their memories ? but then i get started on the other things like when hiro and claire went back 16yrs and how come noah didnt remember that it was claire/”bonnie”, i mean surely he would have noticed they look completly the same.”
EXACTLY! Present day Noah should have found her looking increasingly familiar as she grew up… and also Kaito, as Hiro grew up. it kinda fits in with my ‘Charlie should have recognised OriginalHiro, not just CowboyHiro’ theory. And on top of that, HOW many times has Hiro encountered his past self (at different ages)? Let’s see… I’ll prob miss a few…
1) He met himself when he was what, 10 yrs old (at his mum’s funeral – can’t remember if they actually met/ saw each other)?
2) When he and Claire went back, he met himself just before his mum gave him the Catalyst and died (Kaito thought he was the new chef, but the mum ‘recognised’ him straight away)
3) This season, at the Carnival 14 years ago (so he was about 16) when he took the photo… Young Hiro said “Do I know you?/ you look familiar” or something… but C’MON! at 16 yrs old, it would have been like looking into a SLIGHTLY older mirror. From this alone, I have come to the astonishing conclusion that Hiro is dumber than I thought. MUCH dumber.
I didn’t think that was possible.
4) At the Burnt Toast Diner last ep. At least THIS time, OriginalHiro recognised himself! Then he was ‘tricked’ into going back to save Charlie like a “moron” (I love that scene!)
I find it hard to believe that if CowboyHiro is still the future version of these past selves (i.e. same timeline, and not an alternate version) that he wouldn’t have memories of these encounters… Even a simple ‘revelation moment’ like “Oh yeaaahhh… I remember seeing that man that looked like an older me when I was that age…” or something similar would put a plug in that plothole.
“Also wasnt hiros power iffy at that time 3yrs ago remember he was only suppposed to go back a day & yet he was perfect at going back this time and how does he know when to come back cos he “timed out” (as i like to put it lol).”
Again, absolutely right. Luckily the writers seem to have had the help of the gods of Convenience
coz, if you think about it, the ORIGINAL OriginalHiro (in S1, I mean) TRYING to go back a day resulted in him missing the mark by about 6 months… so why didn’t this OriginalHiro – who was told to go back six months – miss THAT mark and end up, say, 10 years in the past? That was a big risk, if you ask me. Everything could have gone kablooey.
I was gonna try to answer that… In S1, Hiro was so distraught over Charlie’s murder that he couldn’t control how far back he went (remember his ability is/ was affected by his ‘mental state’ (stress, confidence, etc). But still, this season when Cowboy told Original that Charlie was dead and he must go back 6 months… let’s just say that Original took it much, MUCH better than he should have lol! He didn’t seem quite as distressed about it, even seemed quite upbeat and excited at the thought of going back… Charlie’s death didn’t seem to carry the same serious weight for Original here. Another reason why Cowboy’s memories should be affected, and the whole thing becomes a paradox that couldn’t have worked IMO.
“hmm who knows where the charlie plot is heading but this could certinatly end up with badass hiro, well most likely the attitude not the image…”
All I know is this: There WILL NOT be a Happy Ever After for Hiro and Charlie. I think it’s obvious that Charlie will still end up dying/ being killed, or maybe Kaitlin’d lol! As for the impact it will have on Hiro, he might not become a full badass Hiro, but I agree he would mature quite a bit as a result. And if she dies in a worse way than originally, Hiro would blame himself… and believe even more that changing the past is bad.
OMG! I can see Charlie – in the present – getting her head cut open AGAIN by Sylar when he reverts to type (prob when the Sy in Matt’s head gets reunited with his body). This would REALLY f**k Hiro up, and also prove to be a lesson in course correction for him.
When you think about it, Sam removing Charlie from the past – so she still ‘no longer exists’ in the timeline for the last 3 yrs – probably inadvertently HELPED Hiro, in that she wasn’t originally around during that time… and she still isn’t, so she doesn’t have any impact on the timeline for the last three years. But that also means that she shouldn’t exist in the present, so I’m sure something will happen to remove her from it.
Sorry peeps, this might be another lengthy post, but something that crossed my mind a few weeks ago, just after the ep where Hiro has to keep saving the guy on the roof (is it Tadashi? Can’t remember – I’ll just call him ‘Tad’). There’s kinda two parts to this one…
Part 1)… When Hiro gets the phone call, he has been in the office talking with Ando up until then, right? He takes the call, goes up to the roof… Blahblahblah… Tad jumps off the building… and Hiro jumps to the past to save him.
The next time we see Hiro appear, it’s back in the office A FEW MINUTES BEFORE THE CALL… So, shouldn’t he see himself talking to Ando before the phone rings? Why is his original self NOT in the room?
If his original self ‘ported into the room ORIGINALLY, and then took the call, it would make sense to me. But he ‘ported back from the past-Carnival LONG before the point in time that he kept returning to when trying to rescue Tad, and he was in the room (after talking to his sister) up until the phone rang… so I’m sure he should have seen himself and Ando talking.
ALSO… THIS IS IMPORTANT (to me anyway)… Hiro can jump to any point in time, but still ages normally. So he saved Tad, what, 47 times? Each time he is still aging, but he is returning to the EXACT SAME point in time (actually, he kept returning slightly to the past, before the phone rings).
but seriously, he would have physically aged by 5 years, but still at the exact same point in the timeline. In other words, if he SHOULD be 30 years old in the present day (going by birthdate) he would actually PHYSICALLY be 35 yrs old.
Let’s take this to extremes. If Hiro kept saving Tad over the course of 5 years, he would be bloody exhausted, for a start
Basically, every time Hiro time travels, unless he returns to the CORRECT point in time to compensate for how long he has been time displaced (i.e. spends half an hour in the past… returns half an hour AFTER he left the present) he is, in effect, aging faster than normal.
Let’s call this the Time Aging Phenomenon (T.A.P. for short). Because of T.A.P., Hiro is already at least a minute older than he should be (remember when he tried to trick Usutu in Africa? He got knocked out, and when he came to he went back in time to a minute before he got KO’d… and got KO’d again! So the ‘present’ version of Hiro was there ONE MINUTE before he first got there (!), making him chronologically older than when he first arrived! And remember, he spent a length of time back in 17th Century Japan, but it’s possible that he came back to the correct point in time that he should have (coz Kaito and Ando were waiting for him to return).
Now, this is where it gets juicy!
Part 2)… Using T.A.P., if Hiro (for example) goes into the FUTURE and lives there for a period of time… let’s say FIVE YEARS GO by… during that 5 yr period, he could do some extensive sword/ martial arts training, and coz it’s the future, he can’t step on any butterflies that would affect our present…
When he returns to the present time… VOILA! Badass (’Future’) Hiro – IN THE PRESENT DAY!!!
And if Charlie gets killed this season (which could change Hiro’s attitude into Badass), and THEN he goes future-awol to cut himself off from everyone, etc etc…
Dammit, what’s Tim Kring’s email address?!?
I GET IT SK! UR WINNING THE LOGEST COMMENT COMPETITION IF YOU JOIN YOUR LAST THREE TOGETHER. jks lool
Let me put it this way: How psyched were you when the subject of CB was mentioned the other week? Let me answer… VERY!!!
Now, if they were mentioning/ using CB EVERY SINGLE DAMN EPISODE, the impact would become non-existent, no? Not to mention that it would get BLOODY BORING (no pun intended… at first)!
I find it hard to believe that if CowboyHiro is still the future version of these past selves (i.e. same timeline, and not an alternate version) that he wouldn’t have memories of these encounters… Even a simple ‘revelation moment’ like “Oh yeaaahhh… I remember seeing that man that looked like an older me when I was that age…” or something similar would put a plug in that plothole.
ahh sk i agree with so much there, unfortunately there is a plot hole there but that is the way the writers have chosen to do it, they have said now that all timelines still exist without themselves meaning to i think.
tap huh? well ur right about hiro aging, but its been years since hrg saw ‘bonnie’ claire so i dont blame him.
if charlie dies but we get badass hiro, it is worth it, what do u say?
point, we learned something new and necessary, claire cant solve everything, but i still havent heard a theory about why they didnt save nathan, fine angela wants to follow her dream, but hrg?
Now, when CowboyHiro returns and unfreezes time, she exclaims “Hiro!” (so she recognises him, no problemo… doesn’t ask what happened to his clothes, like Ando did – so she hasn’t mistaken him for OriginalHiro, who she simply does not seem to know OR recognise!) While hugging, she even says “Woah, you act like you haven’t seen me in years!” or something like that… SO SHE DOES REMEMBER HIM! How could she not react AT ALL to OriginalHiro like she’d never met him before, but react so strongly (and ‘intimately’) to CowboyHiro in the space of a minutes/ hours? I thought she had an eidetic memory! Hey, if OriginalHiro (moron LOL!) can recognise himself instantly – as did Ando – then why can’t she?
same thought with me too lol. but maybe hiro told her to not f*** with time and to act as though they didnt know eachother…
So we have a Hiro who has altered the memories of his past self – but shown no repercussions as a result, so in effect CowboyHiro remembers a past that never happened. Because of this non-existent history that only he remembers, he has gone back in time to save a woman who never got killed or died – even though he remembers that she did. He has negated the reason for himself going back in time AND altered the experiences (and therefore the memory) of his past self, but retained the original memories AND not faded away… or even had so much as a headache.
PARADOX? OR PLOTHOLE???
sigh. great minds think alike sk. our hiro, who you name cowboy hiro, WE NEED THESE DIFFERENT NAMES TO HELP US UNDERSTAND.
anyway cowbody hiro did a ‘future peter’ a ‘future hiro’ whatever you want to call it. so really what should happen is this:
- his timeline fades. it ceases to exist. past hiro would relive the same events and hopefully it would all work out. but the timeline doesnt fade
KAITLIN IS STILL ALIVE
as cowboy hiro, our hiro’s timeline still exists with his memories, so does powers futures and all futures. this makes going back in time pointless as your future wont change.
i dont believe what i said above though, sk74 its a plot hole because otherwise matrix peter, (th 1 from FYG) matrix peter would have possibly beaten sylar in that fight and still have the power to traavel from timeline to timeline.
does that make sence?
@sk, the past was changing as Hiro played his cards. In the beginning, Charlie didn’t recognize him because his actions prevented past hiro from going 6months ago. He changed it shortly after by talking to his “Moron” self, then he appeared on the photo and Charlie was glad to see him again.
@alexx I think Kaitlin is gone unless a time traveler re-enables the Shanti virus timeline and go rescue her.
I wouldn’t care about Charlie dying as long as they give her a proper ending and don’t let her remain in limbo like Kaitlin. If it’s what it takes for Hiro to grow up and get his sword back then so be it.
@ F.D.
“the past was changing as Hiro played his cards. In the beginning, Charlie didn’t recognize him because his actions prevented past hiro from going 6months ago. He changed it shortly after by talking to his “Moron” self, then he appeared on the photo and Charlie was glad to see him again.”
You know what, that actually does make perfect sense to me when you put it like that – but I still have a problem with it, in a way! Well, the problem is probably more relevant to S1 than with this ep.
Basically, from S1 the thing I’ve never been able to get my head around is that Charlie and the other waitress should have recognised Hiro from when he and Ando originally entered the Diner. While what you say makes perfect sense (he had to actually go into the past – and thus appear in the photo – for them to remember him FROM the past), it doesn’t make sense to me that they would suddenly just ‘manifest’ a memory AFTER he jumped into the past, whereas before that moment they didn’t have that memory. Do you get what I mean?
Let me try to clarify my logic… forget this season’s episode for a minute. Think back to S1… if Hiro travelled 6 months into the past – which he did – then THE EVENT OF HIM BEING THERE HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE IN THE TIMELINE… so by the time he and Ando stepped into the Diner – even though he had not yet performed the action of going to the past, he had already been there and Charlie had met him 6 months before that day. So IMO she and the other waitress should have known him already, and he should have already been in the photo on the wall.
I think someone posted on on of these pages about a similar time-thingy plot in a Harry Potter film (never seen ‘em) where Harry gets hit by a rock but doesn’t know who by… later in the film, it turns out that Harry himself – after travelling back in time – threw the rock to stop himself doing something etc etc thus completing the loop. Also, I don’t know if you watch Lost, but they had a similar time-loop with Locke and a compass… I won’t get into it now, but THAT kind of time-loop makes sense to me, when a future version of somebody doesn’t so much alter the past… more like they were already there, they just had to complete the loop for it all to logically work.
So following that train of thought, the only way I can see the Hiro-Charlie-photo time-jump working logically is if Hiro has set things onto an alternate timeline, and this is what we are watching now. Because if you think about it, the Bomb was supposed to do everything it was meant to do in S1 and the FYG future was supposed to be the real future (as far as we know). Ever since THAT was averted, we have been watching alternate timelines unfolding. That’s my opinion anyway, seems to be the only way Hiro can do all that he’s done without us all forever screaming “PLOTHOLE!!!” or “PARADOX!”
In a nutshell: Photo changed = Memories changed = Timeline changed = ALTERNATE TIMELINE!
Hiro kind of jumped into a time pocket or something. Remember, Ando was still waiting for him to come back (from the past), so he still wasn’t done with his intervention. Remember, it was AFTER Charlie died that Moron Hiro decided to go back 6mths before to save her. So Present Hiro essentially ported to the timeline in which Moron Hiro still hadn’t completed his intervention.
“In a nutshell: Photo changed = Memories changed = Timeline changed = ALTERNATE TIMELINE!”
Because Present Hiro was in a timeline in which Moron Hiro was not. Photo changed = Moron Hiro’s doing.
Also remember that there was a timeline in which Moron Hiro DIDN’T go back in time, because Charlie didn’t die (so Moron Hiro didn’t bother going in the past and befriend her). This would explain why nobody recognized him. When he ported there, he was already in the “charlie will be saved later, therefore past Hiro won’t go back in time” timeline. He however re-changed it by manipulating Moron Hiro!
I think someone posted on on of these pages about a similar time-thingy plot in a Harry Potter film (never seen ‘em) where Harry gets hit by a rock but doesn’t know who by… later in the film, it turns out that Harry himself – after travelling back in time
ya tht ws me buit what i dont understand is this,
past hiro will fail at saving charlie and then what? will he eventually turn into our hiro?
OUR HIRO SHOULDNT EXIST ANY MORE. At least i hope that sylar says to hiro in the present timeline ‘dude i remember you’.
sk the timetravel thing, plot hole and end of story, seriously, hiro walks in cafe, they should of all gone hey hiro!…but they didnt.
i luved th last ep though best ep of season so far right?
@ F.D.
Mate, I won’t lie – you have just confused the hell out o’ me!!! :S I know what you’re saying in a way, but then my brain just registers it all as ‘HUH?!?’… just before I get the nosebleed LOL! I’ll read ur comment again later, let it sink in first… I guess if we can just agree that we have just seen the transition of one reality/ timeline into another (i.e. OriginalHiro Timeline where Charlie died, into CowboyHiro Timeline where she didn’t) then we can debate this a bit later.
But I think alexx kinda gets my point – and makes it clearer…
“…seriously, hiro walks in cafe, they should of all gone hey hiro!…but they didnt.”
@ alexx
“past hiro will fail at saving charlie and then what? will he eventually turn into our hiro?”
This is exactly what I’m sayin’ bro… the past Hiro that went back 6 months is supposed to be our Hiro (that we have following all along) from S1… BUT WAIT!!! That version of Hiro in S1 SAW Charlie’s dead body… but this time around HE DIDN’T! So if we consider that just the detail of SEEING Charlie dead is now a difference between the original S1 Hiro (who is our Hiro, aka CowboyHiro in this ep) and the past Hiro in this ep (who we have called OriginalHiro, but I think MoronHiro would be a better identifier… hey, ur right – we need all these names sometimes
)
then how can they now be one and the same? I really think that Hiro is seriously screwig with the timeline… again.
Also (this is also to F.D.) if you consider the impact of Charlie’s death on these different versions of Hiro… especially focus on the fact that [Cowboy]Hiro witnessed Charlie’s body and MoronHiro didn’t… consider Cowboy’s distraught reaction in S1 which stressed him out & made him go too far into the past… his desparation/ determination/ drive to save Charlie from Sylar… etc etc… everything that has led him to the point of where his brain-tumour-activated ability has automatically sent him back to save her from the death THAT HE WITNESSED.
MoronHiro has not experienced ANY of that.
When he was told ‘the waitress’ was dead and he must save her, he was curious to see, rather than distraught and adamant that he wanted to see her. I almost pictured him jumping up and down like an excited cheerleader at the idea of having such an important mission!
The trouble he had with his power wouldn’t have happened… this was due to his lack of confidence in himself and his abilities, directly related to being unable to save Charlie. Especially coz he didn’t see her body to spur him to try so hard.
CowboyHiro’s actions also stopped MoronHiro from seeing the horror of what Sylar does, which also must have had an impact on his development and maturation of character.
And finally, if CowboyHiro could even forget put Charlie on his bucket list, then what the hell would jog MoronHiro’s memory to come back to save her? This is why Moron and Cowboy cannot be the same person. In S1, when Hiro finally made it back to the Diner (he was having trouble with his power – coz he couldn’t save Charlie), Charlie was still dead, and I think Ando asked if he saved her, tho I could be wrong. This time around, when he returns, Ando has seen Charlie alive and well in the Diner (when CowboyHiro was peeking in at her from outside, before she stepped out and dissed him). So wtf?
@ alexx
BTW Yes, the ep was great tho!
true sk but there is a slight chance that it all just sliped into place n worked out, either way, our hiro should really now be the moronhiro if you understand my point.
Except MoronHiro never saved Charlie. He went 6months ago and befriended her, but she assured him that it she was dying anyway and accepted her fate.
MoronHiro was still very newbish at using his ability. Remember how rusty Peter felt after not using it for a while… Hiro was just beginning to learn how to use it. AND…. he was a moron.
CowboyHiro did know how to manipulate MoronHiro with all the duty and heroism talk, especially knowing that MoronHiro had a crush for Charlie (he was prepping to seduce her in the the bathroom when CowboyHiro talked to him). It is no surprised to me that he got him to teleport exactly at the same place.
But MoronHiro didn’t leave AT the same time. In original S1, he left after witnessing Charlie’s death. In this modified timeline, he left sooner, and before talking to Ando. As far as Ando was concerned, MoronHiro went to the bathroom and disappeared, this is exactly why Samuel hinted CowboyHiro to go to Ando and ask him to wait. Whereas original S1 Ando knew Hiro went back to save Charlie.
@sk74
“I almost pictured him jumping up and down like an excited cheerleader at the idea of having such an important mission!”
I was waiting for the seal-clap, havent seen that in ages altho actually i think he did that in the original ep…ow ow ow !
you know when cowboyhiro was outside the diner urging ando to go back inside, had ando seen charlie then?
also was watching FYG only to see that our hiro even told f.hiro that he couldnt control where/when he time-travels to, so it just makes no sense to me how he could have been perfect at going back 6 months when cowboyhiro told him he actually had to (the bathroom bit).
-k-
@ F.D.
“But MoronHiro didn’t leave AT the same time. In original S1, he left after witnessing Charlie’s death. In this modified timeline, he left sooner, and before talking to Ando. As far as Ando was concerned, MoronHiro went to the bathroom and disappeared, this is exactly why Samuel hinted CowboyHiro to go to Ando and ask him to wait. Whereas original S1 Ando knew Hiro went back to save Charlie.”
Ahhh… thanks for clearing that up for me. I still didn’t get why he had to talk to Ando, although I’d figured that Ando thought he was still in the bathroom.
But…
this just further proves my point, that the way that the original S1 events occurred is different to the way that these events have occurred… if, in S1, Hiro met his future COWBOYself in the bathroom and went back etc etc, and Ando was told by the same person that he had to wait etc etc, then I would say “OK, all is good, that REALLY baffled me back then but it all makes sense now.” (Actually, that would have been F***ING COOL, if we’d had TWO Future Hiros… the Ninja on the train from FYG future, and the Cowboy in the diner from the current one… but that would be impossible. Or would it? Alternate.Realities.)
It would be so funny to see more than two “versions” of Hiro gather up from different timelines. In theory, this could be possible. This is why time-travel is only a sci-fi thing.
moron hiro will go on to encounter futurehiro…future hiro will be moron hiro plus five years and so will remember meeting another version of himself.
doesnt that show that when hiro travelled back in time, the alternate future line still existed then.
technicely speaking hiro could go to all of the other realities which would be ‘eliminated by the present one’ if you believe in that theory, and have what four hiro’s all together, team hiro…but that would be dangerous…risky, probably not worth it.
right this poped into my head earlier today and its drving me crazy, dont suppose someone can help me with it:
f.hiro said he was risking a rift by staying to long (erm i think it was when he met peter on the subway, altho it could be have been f.peter) and i can remember Tim Kring in one of his interviews ages ago saying that he could never have a future or past character in a normal timeline as it would blow his series apart. does anyone know if Kring/one of the actors/charcters have mentione rifts in more detail. It just seems a bit weird what with caitlin and now charlie.
-k-
the rift was that he was pausing time while our cowbody hro, then moron hiro, was around.
imagine if moronhiro was walking and suddenly time froze randomly, moronhiro ws probs asleep at the time….you kno with th time difference?
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